Danny's drumming methods?

[Slave#1]

Danny plays using "polyrythms." The best example, or the one that you can hear the most in any of their songs, is during Schism or Hush. During Hush danny is hitting a drum (hihat?) in a certain rythm that drives the song. During Schism, which is probably listened to more since all of the snotty slipkunts started jumping on the TOOL bandwagon to be cool, the polyrythms are the most noticable. if you listen, he is playing them during the intro, and after the first verse, during the instrumental chorus, he plays them again. I can't describe what it sounds like...its almost like a "ting" noise... Maybe someone could help me out and tell me what he's playing. Danny does this in A LOT in almost every TOOL song.

I just love the way he uses these rythms on "Lateralus." They really drive the songs along for me. I believe it adds to the already complex nature of the album, or albums.

If there are any drummers around who know what I'm talking about here, could you please answer this post and explain it to me a bit better?

Thanks,

Bryan

[rickiep00h]

I'm no drummer, but I'll try my best here:

A polyrhythm is usually cosidered one of two things: playing in a meter not considered "normal", that is, 7/4 or 13/8 or something akin to that (for example, Lateralus repeats 9/8, 8/8, 7/8), or it is an odd number of notes played in the space of an even number of beats (or an even number of notes in an odd number of beats), like a triplet or a septuplet.

The easiest way to identify them is when an accent comes in a place that "feels wrong". Turn up the volume on the verse of Parabola or Ticks n Leeches to see what I mean. Or listen to Marty Friedman's lead work with Megadeth.

There is really no mysitcal polyrythym technique, it's just a matter of coordination and internal timing, which are two things drummers strive to develop anyway.

Danny mentions on his website (www.dannycarey.org) that he attributes his work with tabla master Aloke Dutta to his more accomplished drumming on Salival and Lateralus. He said the benefits became apparent almost immediatly, including better coordination, and better internal timing, in addition to dexterity and the benifit of learning a new musical language.

Hopefully that helps. :)

[mne pohuy]

What the hell are you talking about. A polyrhythm is two or more rhythms that exploit themseleves simultaneously. For it to be a true polyrhythm, the numbers (triplets eights so 3 and 2) of the rhythms should be relatively prime. The sum subdivision of any of the rhythms should not equal a subdivision of the others. For example a 3/2 hemiola is a polyrhythm. 3 and 2 are directly prime and no subdivisions add up to another.

[Chuckhawk]

Originally posted by rickiep00h
I'm no drummer...

Maybe that explains it...

[haftelm]

A polyrhythem is also commonly refered to as playing different time signatures (for drummers) on different limbs.......for example: 4/4 on highhat and lets say 9/6 or some weird signature on everything else.......Reflection is an example of this.......if you listen carefully after the first few measures Danny comes in with the highhat in 4/4 while playing the normal rhythem. The interlude in lateralus also has some forms of polys

[megadan]

I think that's the hihat he's playing in Schism. The one playing the bass's rythem, right?

[UniDeaL]

No...He's saying about Reflection hi-hat loops in 4/4...pedal work-1, 2, 3, 4 while playing different signature. Sometimes it's difficult to count even for regular drummer but it's not so hard to figure out those differences, for example, between 4 hits of hi-hat pedal and 4 hits of bass-drum.
And not the same thing on Schism when he's playing 2hand/1hand hi-hat loops on each verse with bass line...

[rickiep00h]

Y'know, I was just trying to help out, okay? There's no reason to be condescending.

And you know, I wasn't terribly off in what I said. It just wasn't PERFECT because I don't know EXACTLY what the hell polyrhythm is, and honestly, by what I've read that was also posted, pohuy, you're not exactly interested in helping a guy out, you're just trying to sound smart.

I'm sorry I was a little confused, but as I said, I'm not a drummer, but I tried to give the best explaination I could based on what I've read and the drummer/perc friends I have.

And I'd much rather try to help someone understand something than flame them for not knowing what they're talking about. So fuck you, pal.

[mne pohuy]

It's not really helping someone when you give them wrong/only partially right information or ideas... is it. Anyways, Reflection is in 4/4. The highhat is on the quarter notes. If you want to hear a great polyrhythm, listen to triad... the rhythm is in 6/8.

[dan]

whatever they are called, he does use them in Reflection. you can hear the him counting like 4/4 beats on the hihats, just pressing the pedal with his foot, not with the drum stick.

:P

d'oh, just saw the post above mine...

[rickiep00h]

I said I was gonna try, didn't I? You didn't have to go and be bitchy about it. You could have said "that's close, but" or hell, even "you're wrong" but "what the hell are you talking about"? that's just outright mean. whatever happened to tact?

[timesig.net]

Polyrythm:

1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a
1e2e3e1e2e3e1e2e3e1e2e3e1e2e3e1e2e3e1e2e3e1e2e3e
okay, the top is 4/4, the bottom 3/8. In drumming the top could be a ride cymbal, floor tom, hi-hat, whatever keeping a quarter, 16th, 32nd, whatever. The bottom can keep a quarter note, which would be an 8th on the top, etc. on a different drum or cymbal. As a whole polyrythms go between instruments, I'm pretty sure there is one in 46and2 towards the end of the solo. Triad is the best polyrythm on lateralus.
1 e + - 2 e + - 3 e + -1 e + a(6/8)
000 2 000 2 000 2 000 2 000 2 (4/4)
I think thats right its hard to right this way.
Oh yeah, and reflection is in 4/4, there is no polyrythm. Try counting and hihat hits and remember that the last two hits of the first measure happen on 1..2..3..4e(+a).
Trust me

[MushroomStamp]

An "according to hoyle" polyrhythm has all equally spaced notes, ie a 3 over 4 is where 3 notes are equally subdivided across 4. Two different time signatures being played simultaneously can create polyrhthm-like effects as well, but arent as easily classified.

There are a ton of polyrhythms on Ænima.

Take the beginning of 46&2, while danny is only playing the ride and various cymbals. The main time (on bass) is 4/4 but danny plays a 7/8 (XoXoXoo) over it to create polyrhythmic effects. His downbeat and the rest of the band's down beat wind up at the same spot every 4 bars(of 7/8).

In Eulogy while maynard is using the voice modulator, he starts with a 2 over 3 polyrhythm (which is the same phrase as the "you claimed all this time that you would die for me.." played later.) Then we moves into a 4 over 3 before the intro finishes. Note that the time signature in this case is 4/4, but he is overlapping every three beats (no bearing on time sig)

Another use of 4 over 3 is at the end of Ænema where danny is playing four tom flams per each three kicks. (he does some grace notes here and there, but its still 4 over 3.

there are a ton more, but you get the idea.

[rickiep00h]

Which is sorta what I said... only a little more detailed. And much better said, I might add. I'm convinced you're one smart mofo, Mush.

[MushroomStamp]

heh, thanks dude. I'm not that smart, just played drums a long time.

[myoptika]

A lot of people get confused between polyrhythms and polymetrics.

Polyrhythms are two or more different rhythms played by any instrument (it isn't just restricted to the drums) but not necessarily in different time meters. For example: at the end of 'Third Eye', the band all play in 3/4 while Maynard sings in 8/4, which is why the band hit that same beat on a different syllable that he's singing.

The above is also a polymetric (ie two instruments or parts playing in different time meters). Polyrhythms aren't always polymetric, but polymetrics are always polyrhythmic, I think...

Do correct me if I'm wrong!

[aethereddy]

ok, here's a great article on polyrhythms, for the musically inclined: http://www.vai.com/littleblackdots/tempomental.html

[rickiep00h]

That article is insane... thanks!

I always thought coming here would make me smarter...

[Dhalz]

Its good to hear from drummers a even to a guitarist such as myself danny is an amazing drummer.

[unumveritas]

I know this is all about Danny's drumming methods and his polyrhythms, but I have a relevant question.
The part on "Lateralus" when Maynard starts with "come embrace my desire to..." Justin is playing a 4/4(?), while Danny is playing a 5/8(?) on his hi hat and bass drum. Is that an example of polyrhythms only that it's played by 2 different members of the band? In other words, were danny to play the rhythm Justin is playing on his toms, let's say, along with the 5/8(?) he's already playing, would that make his drumming polyrhythmic? It's a question stemming from ignorance rather than stupidity, I hope.

[aethereddy]

that's not exactly polyrhythms, unumveritas. what's happening in that part of 'lateralus' is justin playing in 6/8 and danny playing straight 8th notes with a diddle on every 5th one.
polyrhythms change the value of a note so that more or less notes can be played in the same length of time. best example i can think of is halfway through 'a little green rosetta' on the last side of joe's garage where zappa goes "where's the 5?" and the drummer plays 5 notes per measure over the rest of the band playing 4 notes per measure.
something more relevant to this page would perhaps be at the end of 'ænema' where danny plays 4 beats over the rest of the band's slow 3 (or fast 6, depending on how you count it). or maybe midway through 'disgustipated' where justin is in 6 while adam and danny's hands are in 4 (his feet are in 6).
so really, that part in 'lateralus' is playing around with the placement of accents and diddles. same with the danny/maynard soli in 'eulogy', and the 7/8 over 8/4 in 'forty-six & 2' (i count it in 8/4 because it's actually 7/8 (2+2+3) and 9/8 (2+2+3+2) alternating), all because the value of the 8th note remains unchanged.

[cre8soul]

what about in Eulogy durring the break when it's just Danny playing and Maynard singing...That rythem Danny is playing is so fucked up but it sounds simple at first...Try playing it beat for beat, it is really fcuking hard!

[Madklikor]

A polyrythm is a superposition of several parts with different rythms and with accents that don't coincide between each others (definition of the Larousse of music).
So the part in Lateralus is a polyrythm : Guitar and vocal in 4/4, bass in triolets on 4/4, and the drums in 5/8.

[the_drummar]

examples of polyrhythms:
(btw I AM a drummer)
eulogy drum solo with vocals-listen for the hihat
pushit-beggining, again hihat
Aenima the end- perfect example of polyrhythm, its 3 over 4, the breathing and guitar are playing on the beat, and the drum and bass are playing repeated dotted quarter notes, notice how every 3 times maynard breaths all the intruments line up.....tricky freaking danny


polyrhythms got me hooked on tool ever since eulogy

[MushroomStamp]

Originally posted by the_drummar
Aenima the end- perfect example of polyrhythm, its 3 over 4

Its actually 4 over 3. The time sig for the end is 3/4 (3 pulses per measure) and danny is pounding out 4 flams per bar. Then just to confuse you the final bar (which has no polyrhythm) is 4/4.

[hubrisband]

>If there are any drummers around who know what I'm >talking about here, could you please answer this post and >explain it to me a bit better?

Do you mean the way he's playing the hats to the bass, like? If so, I play the same way, but I've only just realised Danny does it now, cus you said it.

I often play my hi-hats with the guitars in the band, following the tune to, kind of, re-enforce it or something. I also play the kick along with the bass guitar as much as I can. I think this tightens up the music. But I don't think this is a "polyrythmn", I thought it was just text book.

[Slave#1]

Originally posted by hubrisband
>If there are any drummers around who know what I'm >talking about here, could you please answer this post and >explain it to me a bit better?

Do you mean the way he's playing the hats to the bass, like? If so, I play the same way, but I've only just realised Danny does it now, cus you said it.

I often play my hi-hats with the guitars in the band, following the tune to, kind of, re-enforce it or something. I also play the kick along with the bass guitar as much as I can. I think this tightens up the music. But I don't think this is a "polyrythmn", I thought it was just text book.

Well, I've always liked danny's style...I just never really understood how he played...

[hawthorne]

[I can't describe what it sounds like...its almost like a "ting" noise... Maybe someone could help me out and tell me what he's playing. Danny does this in A LOT in almost every TOOL song.


( if I know what you're talking about)
I think you're hearing him hit the middle of a ride cymbal.
It gives that nice little "ting" sound you're talking about. I and a few friends have come to the conclusion, though, that Danny is actually a robot with skin, and he obviously has no corpus collasum.

[StoneRose]

Me too. Reni is better.